AR or 1911 build?

[sleepyweasel]

I think i want to build a gun, just simply buying them is getting old....... started thinking of doing an AR build, but if i did i would want it in 9mm not 223....same with the 1911, i would like it to be in 9mm or possibly 40s&w(is this even possible?) maybe an ak build would be easier?....This would be my first build, so where do i start?how much will it cost? where to buy the parts?

what do you think of the AR and AK "pistols"?

[KPierce]

The only AR pistol that I have liked the looks of is a Kel Tec. Most every one of the AR or AK pistol builds I have seen are pretty ugly looking. But that is just my opinion.

As to which build you should do as your first ? That can only be answered by you based on what you know. AR's seem to be the most common build platform. But your want to stick with 9mm with any of the builds may prove to be very expensive and I am not sure how prevalent parts are for those particular gun types to be able to make a 9mm version.

I wish that I could be more helpful, but my smithing experience is not a lot. I will be doing a lot of research in the next 4 mos myself. As I plan on building a sniper type rifle myself. Me and DSmith have been talking about this and it's something we will probably be doing together.

But what ever choice you decide to go with, I wish you luck. :Peace!:

[DSMITH]

to me i like them all:cool2:
i have done a couple of builds ..
and just finishing a rifle restoration for my GREAT nephew ( he just turned 16 months old the lil redneck ):lol:
as Kpierce was saying he and i are gonna do a sniper build after the new year .

But I am kinda old school and as for the ease of it id pick the 1911

best of luck .. if i can help just ask ...probably not as good as a few on here but i am willing to lend a hand

[Dash Riprock]

I chose AR and 1911... They both ROCK!

How hard is it to build a 1911 and where do you get the parts? I'm assuming all 1911 parts are interchangeable and some require an FFL to purchase... Which ones and what kind of money should be expected to spend on the parts?

[CBnL]

Go .308...
AR10
:AR15firing:

you can get nice options for those... easier to actually use as a hunting weapon too!

Springfield M1A is nice too but the accessories for those (SAGE aftermarket stock) cost almost as much as the gun.

With AR10, you can get your starter, then additional uppers (but then if you are like me you buy lowers to go on the additional uppers...)

I'll try to snap some pics of my current .308's

[CBnL]

also, on pistols... I have a carbon-15 pistol... very cool...
ALSO in talking with an ATF agent... if you just buy a bare lower... it isn't an assembled gun so it can be built into a pistol...
Lots of people will say "Pistols have to have P's in the SR#'s" well, maybe major manufactures do that to make it easy to tell what was built as a pistol and what was built as a rifle but a bare lower can be built into a pistol (might make sure the guy selling it, if they check anything at all on the form, check pistol)
BUT... if you ever put a rifle upper on it... it is FOREVER MORE A RIFLE
a legal rifle because you can convert in that direction but you, then, can never switch it back to a pistol.

[Toecutter1201]

Can anyone guess who voted "Other":poke: i personally would choose to build something that everyone and his sisters brothers cousin isnt building. yes i am in the middle of building the wife's AR but thats for her, not me!

[sleepyweasel]

cbnl....how much would it cost to build an ar-10 in 308? I am looking to build a basic model ar......

[sleepyweasel]

I'm looking into ar stuff right now, might have to go this way

9mm ar kits cost alot more than 223 or 5.56, which brings me this question....

which should i get a ,223 or a 5.56? Doesn't one of them work with both?ex. 5.56 chamber will run with 5.56 and .223 ammo, while .223 chamber will not work with 5.56....or is it the reverse?
I think i will have to go with a full "kit" that has everything except a lower stripped reciever. does anyone know the best (cheapest) kit availiable?

I want iron sights , but would like to be able to mount optics in the future.....does that mean i want a "flat top" "a-2" or ??????

thanks for the help.

anybody trying to sell what i need let me know:pat9xu:

[DSMITH]

yes they are interchangable (most of them ).
you can get parts everywere .
advancedtactical.com
Frame $94.95 Slide $99.95 Barrel $39.95

yes some parts do require FFL ..( frame )
cheaper than dirt has parts

i saw a parts kit on gunbroker today
hope this answers some of your questions

[Sinatra877]

which should i get a ,223 or a 5.56? Doesn't one of them work with both?ex. 5.56 chamber will run with 5.56 and .223 ammo, while .223 chamber will not work with 5.56....or is it the reverse?

After reading this thread, I am in doubt that you have the experience to build an AR now. I don't want to slam you but if you didn't do your homework whether the AR is in .223 Remington or 5.56 mm NATO...it would behoove me to believe that you haven't reached the technical expertise to build an AR yet alone a 1911 or AK. A .223 Remington is a 5.56mm contrary to what you have heard. It is the same round.

If I were you, I'd just get a nice Bushmaster in either .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO or .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO, it would only cost you about an extra $200 bucks and you can avoid a jigsaw puzzle that you won't be able to put together. Plus you get peace of mind and a warranty.

I don't like shooting the .308/7.62mm AR. It's heavier and more expensive to shoot and accessories are not readily available for them in opposed to 5.56mm versions. If you successfully built a 5.56mm version, you can always get a 9mm conversion kit for it and you'll have two weapons. You can't do that with a .308 version.

Slow down. Lemme post another reply to explain the differences. Get your reading glasses and JK will have to look in another direction for he fears reading my long post replies he'll turn into a pillar of salt or something.:pat9xu:

[Sinatra877]

First of all, the .223 Remington round is based on US specs when you look at the diameter based on our measuring system so it's .223 of an inch. Diameter wise it is only three thousands of a inch larger than your standard .22 LR. Remington made them first and it was named after them. The bullet weight varies on Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) rounds. They will range from 40 grain weight too 64 grains. You will see it labled as .223 Remington 55gr. (FMJ). Follow so far? Good.

5.56 is a military based round. It derives it's designation from NATO and all European rounds are based on the metric system so it means 5.56 mm (millimeters). You could find a box of Lake City rounds labled as: 5.56mm FMJ, 62 gr, SS-109(NATO nomenclature for the rounds.)

Be advised that putting together an AR-15 is a level 4 armorer skill. If you doubt you can do it. I would find a guy like me to do it. Once you do it, you have technically manufactured a weapon and you can never technically sell it unless you have a manufacturer's license and or FFL's. You must pay attention to whether or not the receiver can handle the 62 gr rounds. Some brands don't do well in that category. They will blow harder in the chamber and can possibly kill you. Parts kits barrel assemblies are tricky too. Some rifle barrels chambers and rifling has no chromed lining and that will make your AR jam up easier so buy a parts kit barrel that is chrome lined at the chamber and rifling.

Please keep in mind that parts kits are just like everything else. You get what you pay for so do your homework.

I've built a few rifles for my buddies before from parts kits and they bought me items I wanted and that makes that last limitation moot. That's the only way I could've done that legally.

From my experiences, AR kits are alright for the standard rifle. It won't have match grade capabilities but it will still be a fun shooter. You can buy everything except for the lower receiver housing. That is a registered FFL item. You can find some reasonable prices from TAPCO and through the Shotgun News.

1911's are a rudimentary handgun but it is very meticulous. It is a level 5 to 6 armorer skill. Even though the parts are fitted, it takes years to develop the Master Skills to build one that has decent accuracy. As you may have read in some of the posts, we discussed many 1911 options that cost $600 on up to $3,500 for a pistol that had to be sent back to the manufacturer numerous times. I would avoid this project now if I were you.

AK's are relatively simple to operate and field strip but it takes more machine work to get the stamped metal reciever plate bent in at the right area and doing the rivet work. AK's are very hard to build and I would think an armorer with a level 4 skillset can do it so long as they have the right tools.

In all these projects, there are some very similar tools. A screwdriver but that's where it ends. Everyone of these firearms have their own set of tools to use. You can always get an armorer wrench for the AR and a block vise for the receiver but you'll need a decent workshop to do the work. 1911's are meticulous and there are so many different options, parts and tools that you may need. AK's are tricky. The parts are not quality parts but bending the receiver into the shape you'll need to probably get a rivet gun and/or spotwelder. Just like accessorizing a weapon, everything is different.

Read on if you want to see what the differences are. I'm just giving JK a break if he did in fact read this reply.

[Sinatra877]

Please don't confuse the M16 series and AR-15 series. The M-16 is a military nomenclature name. The AR stands for Armalite Rifle. The basic differences are that military rifles can have auto or burst capability while the AR-15 is only a semi-auto rifle but it is essentially the same shape, size and weight. The Armalite Rifle designation is because Armalite was the first maker of this rifle when Eugene Stoner invented it.

He originally made the AR-10 with a charging handle up into the carrying handle of the rifle when NATO countries were looking into standards for a 7.62mm shooting rifle. During which, many countries offered these rifles..the G3 or H&K 91 from Heckler & Koch in West Germany, the FN-FAL from Fabrique' Nationale' in Belgium. That rifle was adopted by most countries. The British called it the L1A1 and Argentina named it the Imbel. Springfield Armory submitted the M1A and it was adopted by our forces and named the M-14.

Since the US military Ordinance department didn't like Stoner's 5.56mm version. They didn't like him downsizing the bullet and told him that he was jeapordizing the US Soldier's lives. They rigged tests of the rifle. During field testing, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara didn't think the original rifles needed chrome linings and changed from the more expensive powder from ball powder too stick powder. Stoner designed it with a chrome lining because it prevents excess fouling and ball powder burns much cleaner than stick powder. Taking those items away meant that McNamara caused alot of GI's having jam ups from tropical environment exposure to the stick powder rounds. It also didn't help that when troops first got the weapon on a mass level, they had told them that the rifle was maintenance free. Because of these mitigating circumstances, the M-16 had a reputation as a lousy battle rifle. Since the changes, the M-16 is now the longest serving battle rifle fielded by the US and many, many other countries.

During a 4th of July celebration, Eugene Stoner lobbied hard in Washington and met and challenged General Curtis LeMay (ranked higher than God at that time) if he could shoot some watermelons from some pre-set distances during the picnic. General LeMay shot his targets and liked it very much and with Papal decisiveness, ordered a batch for his Air Force MP's outside the Washington Armed Services appropriations committee. His orders stuck. No one would challenge him then.

After initial trials, the original AR-10 was too innovative for it's time. Eugene Stoner looked at large caliber performance in respect to AAR (after action reports) and noted that the average soldier only shoots targets out to only 300 meters. He also looked at wound forensics versus ammo capacity and this is what he found; A 7.62mm round has a gigantic permanent cavity but a little temporary cavity. That means that the 7.62mm/.308 Win killed alot of folks during engagements. On that note, he pitched the new .223 Remington/5.56mm NATO round into his weapons design and refined it. The wound forensics showed that the round made a small permanent cavity while causing a gigantic temporary cavity. This .223 Rem/5.56mm round still caused injuries to totally incapacitate the soldier but would not kill them. It was noted that this bullet size and weight also caused yawing of the bullet within the target cavity. Larger rounds just turn upside down.

So think about that information. The 5.56mm round was designed to incapacitate enemy combatants with an infrastructure and stretch their logistical limits. The M-16 was built with a strategy in mind. I'm confusing you right? If you take a large caliber bullet and used it, it will just kill him. His co-combatants would look at him and split up his gear. However if you pinged him with a solid 5.56mm round, he is incapacitated and at least another co-combatant will have to come off the battlefield temporarily to get them taken care of at their hospital.

In the current war, the enemy combatants have no military infrastructure to take their wounded buddy too. That's why they're fighting until they get killed because they know that they will die anyway. Because of this, some M-14's are now dusted off and given too the troops and Springfield Armory has come out with the M1A SOCOM to kill them with one shot.

So, with all that information, an AR 10 is a Armalite Rifle, 10th version in .308 Winchester or a 7.62mm NATO round.

The M-16/AR-15 Rifle is desribed as a Gas-cyclic operated, 5.56mm firing, magazine fed, shoulder fired weapon

The Evolution of the M-16 Rifle

1. AR-10 - Original design, with bakealite stock and handguards. Rejected for service.

2. M-16 - It's the same as the AR-10 but the charging handle was moved to the bottom of the carrying handle and it was made in 5.56mm bakealite materials used for stock and upper handguards. Automatic capability, Cone shaped flash hider. Adopted by USAF & some SF Advisors in 1965. Used up until 1967.

3. M-16A -black plastic triangular handguards with a three pronged flash hider. Automatic capability. This one was the rifle that McNamara screwed up on. 20" barrel Used up until 1967

4. M-16A1- same as above but it incorporated a bolt assist that gives a soldier the opportunity to hit the assist and force his bolt carrier into battery and it had the 6 slot birdcage flash hider. Used up until 1985.

5. M-16A2 - between the M-16A1, it had a thicker barrel, the six slot flash hider was replaced with the current one which is the 3 slots on top and nothing open on the bottom to prevent dust kick up while shooting prone and deflected the rifle barrel down during burst fire. The front sight post is squared off rather the rounded look like the M-16A1. The furniture was now remade into a cylindrical ribbed shape. A thumb notch was placed on the pistol grip and the rear sight had an elevation setting out too 700 meters for area targeting. The automatic sear was replaced with a 3 round burst capability only. Burst gives a shooter better results rather than full auto.
Some would also say that they made a M-16A3 because it has a detachable carrying handle but no such nomenclature exists because it wasn't ever released into the armed forces. You either had a M-4A4 or an M-16A2. Weapon still in use.

6. M-4 - basically like the M-16A1 but the stock is a paratrooper collapsible stock. 16" thin barrel. Still used.

7. M-4A2 - basically like the M-16A2 with the paratrooper collapsible stock. 14" heavy barrel. Still used.

8. M-4A3- still had a all the qualities of the M-4A2 but it had a detachable carrying handle. 14" thin barrel. Still used.

9. M-4A4 - is exactly like the M-4A3 but it has all the modular tools available for the M1913 rails on the upper handguard. Some would also call it the M-4 SOPMOD Rifle (Special Operations Modular) 14" GL ready notched, thin barrel and everyone and his pet monkey has one in the sandbox. The Army Support troops and USMC are still stuck with the M-16A2 but I think it is a great weapon as well. You can go to the local black market and get one for $500-$600 bucks.

But for PSD work we are issued the M4A4 essentially or the AR variant. We have gotten the collapsible stock AK-Krinkov which is about $200. It is small and the engagement distance is shorter but it hides well to use like a subgun and the 7.62 x 39mm round packs a good punch for it's size. Besides, ammo and parts for AK's are a dime a dozen and it was easy to procure. Of course with today's environment, you really have to be well connected to get specific tools. BW, Dyncorp, 3TC, MPRI and other companies already have enough weapons until rapture.

So doth endeth another lesson for thine day. Hope that was helpful and I haven't melted anything.

[sleepyweasel]

since this is my first build, i am going to go with a completed upper that has already been head spaced and test fired, because you are right(sinatra), i dont have the tools required to do a whole lot more(80% reciever would be to difficult)but lets not start questioning my abilities(sinatra) to complete the lower and pin it to an upper.
as far as the .223 and 5.56...i'm not an idiot, i know that they are the "same", but i have read that one is a little more generouse than the other as far as chamber specs, i thought someone on here would know off hand which it was.....but looks like i will have to research it myself....

[CBnL]

oh, for AR10's Armalite has out on their web site pretty much everything...
it's probably going to run you $1,000+

[Sinatra877]

since this is my first build, i am going to go with a completed upper that has already been head spaced and test fired, because you are right(sinatra), i dont have the tools required to do a whole lot more(80% reciever would be to difficult)but lets not start questioning my abilities(sinatra) to complete the lower and pin it to an upper.
as far as the .223 and 5.56...i'm not an idiot, i know that they are the "same", but i have read that one is a little more generouse than the other as far as chamber specs, i thought someone on here would know off hand which it was.....but looks like i will have to research it myself....

Sleepy, I just don't want you to get hurt man. I do wish you success if you attempt it but just be careful alright?

Regarding the .223/5.56 question. Some would say there is a difference but I haven't seen it. Over the years on the net, I have seen many rampant rumors spread online. This is the first time I've tried to explain it to anyone. There are no differences.

Since you're going to buy a complete upper and lower and just pin them together, I feel much better. From your earlier submission, it sounded like you were going to put together a completely disassembled parts kit. If you do a kit, just give me a holler if you need me and I'll send you schematics.

[sleepyweasel]

ok i found out what the difference is.....acording to a 1979 SAAMI release, they warn of using 5.56 military ammo in 223 sporting arms.....the throat and/or chamber dimemsions of 223 sporting arms arent the same as 5.56 rifles, and when using military ball ammo in them can cause excessive pressure......

what i get from this is 5.56 chamber is safe with 5.56 and 223 ammo, while a .223 chamber "may" cause excessive pressure making it unsafe for fireing...

[sleepyweasel]

i will be buying a completed upper that comes with a lower parts kit....then i will only have to install the parts in the stripped lower.

[sleepyweasel]

i have been researching on the ar-15 forum and i think i will go with a del-ton riffle kit...it comes with everything except stripped lower reciever, and the upper is completely assembled.
i still have to look into shipping, but the kits are $460-$500 and i think i can get a forged lower reciever from essential arms for about $115 including my ffl dealers cut......
the above parts have good track record with the people on ar-15 forum....

then all i will need is a carry handle or rear sights....i'm going to go with an a3 upper....so if anyone know where i gan get one cheap let me know.

also if you know of any kits that are better and cost the same let me know....

[Sinatra877]

i have been researching on the ar-15 forum and i think i will go with a del-ton riffle kit...it comes with everything except stripped lower reciever, and the upper is completely assembled.
i still have to look into shipping, but the kits are $460-$500 and i think i can get a forged lower reciever from essential arms for about $115 including my ffl dealers cut......
the above parts have good track record with the people on ar-15 forum....

then all i will need is a carry handle or rear sights....i'm going to go with an a3 upper....so if anyone know where i gan get one cheap let me know.

also if you know of any kits that are better and cost the same let me know....

Please know I wasn't trying to bust your chops or anything. I was just worried about ya' Pallie.

If you're looking into a A3 upper, I've had the best luck with sources from ADCO, DPMS, Bushmaster and Armalite. That should get you going. Like I said, if you need any help, let me know and I'll send you schematics for it.

[sleepyweasel]

I have decided to do a little more "homework" before i get into building an ar....... decided that i should wait untill i have some more funds and make a nicer ar, instead of breaking the bank now and ending up with a $600 piece of crap.......

[Sinatra877]

Like I said, if you get that AR as a whole or in a parts kit, you can get an dedicated .22LR or 9mm upper receiver. I've got one from Vulcan Arms. It's pretty neat. Unfortunately it uses old Sten Magazines and they still have comsmoline in them and are hard as hell to load. I then put a tri burst on my legal lower AR receiver and have some real fun with my rifle. There are alot of options you can go with.

[CBnL]

OK... here are a few...
AR15's... light and lots of bullets but only 68 grain'ers... (5.56)
http://members.cox.net/decook/AR15s.jpg
M1A with SAGE stock (7.62)
http://members.cox.net/decook/M1A_SAGE.jpg
AR10 set up for long range (7.62)
http://members.cox.net/decook/AR10_b.jpg
AR10 set up for short range (versatile) (7.62)
4x trijicon acog or 1x aimpoint (and an/pvs14 night vision)
http://members.cox.net/decook/AR10_a.jpg