I just wanted to say something...

[Sinatra877]

Alot of you may disagree with me and I welcome the debate but I wanted to get this off of my chest. I'm expressing my 1st Amendment rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. Question is...do we, or I really deserve those rights anymore?

This has has bugged me since 9/11. The American spirit was a no-show that day. I remember folks whom would rather throw themselves off a 100-story building rather than trying to survive...no..that would be too much to ask. I guess they'd rather cry in dispair and throw their useless ass out of a window. Now I hear folks bitching why we're there and why we shouldn't have gone. What will it take? Another calamity?

The Movie United Flight 93 may be touching but who the fuck knows what actually happened? All I know is that they failed to get the aircraft under control and they all perished in a smoking hole in Pennsylvania. That is the only result that I know of. That's the bottom line.

The Hijackers just had box cutters. For Christs' Sake! Think about it. The Folks on those planes just curled up in a fetal position and sang songs holding hands as the radical extremist killed them and folks on the ground. They had a moral obligation too act but no one was willing to get cut to save their lives. All we know is one just tried but failed. 3 out of 4 aircraft says they didn't.

So you're telling me these victims were heroes? Were they? Or were they merely sheep that didn't really try to save their lives by trying and was merely led to their own slaughter? We always expect that folks trained to deal with these situations should deal with the situations but evidently there was no one trained that day. What would you have done if you were a passenger that day...try or die?

So box cutters and knives are off aircraft now. Sharp things. BFD. What's next? A hot cup of coffee in the face? A rolled up Sky Mall magazine too the nose? WTF? Maybe someone will figure out that a ball point pen is dangerous too. As we think they'll be stupid enough to try it again with airliners. C'mon, they are pretty smart. They know how to work it. They have already won the media battle, they learned from our history in Vietnam. All military objectives were won but we lost the public support and therefore losing the entire war there. That's why the majority of the American people have already given up.

Policemen and Firefighters rushing into a building to save others is one of the things they/we get paid too do. It's brave and courageous but that's why they are there. You wouldn't expect a Fireman to come too your house just to watch it burn down to the ground do you? They die...it's a known fact that First Responders do get killed and it happens all the time. Why was 9/11 so special? Firefighters and Policemen get killed all the time and not one of those occasions brought out the American Flag for a few months at a time. Notice today or even yesterday, there wasn't a flag flying from car antennae or random flag displays anywhere...does it take nearly 4,000 folks to die at a time for us to bring out our patriotism? Sure seems like it now. No one wants to remember...no one really cares anymore. No one gives a fuck as long as they can get their gas less than $3 a gallon. We've become a promiscuous, little fickle pussy nation who have lost the edge as a whole whom have forgotten their own history of survival. This is why we will lose. Not that we, as a nation aren't able to win the fight but just unwilling to try to win the fight.

What happened to the strong American that dark day? Where is the American today? No one was willing to risk a bad cut to save a few hundred lives that day. Quite honestly, on 9/11 my heart was wrenched out for those poor folks but I am still angered by their inaction. Why wouldn't they try? I'm embarrassed by it considering the acts of sacrifice, valor and courage I've seen from our Armed Forces overseas. A rifle that is shot in the battlefield is only as effective as the spirit inside the shooter. We've lost our our previously famous American spirit. This is why we will lose.

[jkroner659]

I would have to agree with you...I'll only add 1 thing...

I wonder if those with the box cutters took out the pilot/copilot first, if they did that would really get to the passengers and they might think it's too late or something like that. Not that that's an excuse for inaction, but it would restrain a lot of regular people out there. But I have to agree with you...

[CBnL]

That is why I have to wonder about the actuality of that whole event...
box cutters... WTF?
Have any of you ever been in a crowd surge?
You get pinned up against what ever and can't move
So the first 1 or 2 get cut to pieces... it's bull shit that an entire plane load of people sat back and scratched their asses.

American Sprit???
The powers to be have sedated it out of existence... we are all just sheeple, lambs being led to the slaughter.
The government is working with the drug companies to ensure everyone is, to a degree, sedated into submission... CDC reported in 2004 that almost half of America was on anti-depressants, I've heard that it is closer to 62% currently. We are drugged into submission and indifference!

[Sinatra877]

Don't tell me that you believe there was a 9/11 conspiracy too?

The bottom line of my entire post was that we have lost the spirit and balls to do the right thing. We pussied out during 9/11 and a lot of folks got killed. There is nothing ambiguous about it. No conspiracy, just lack of balls.

[jkroner659]

Ya the camel jockey's even admitted they took the buildings down, there was no conspiracy on our country's part. 9/11 was just a lack of action on our military's part. The reason I say that is after they found out the first plane impacted the tower 1, they should have shot down the other 3 planes since they knew it was a terrorist plot of some sort, but they didn't.

Now in peace time we have very few planes in the air guarding our country, 3 to be precise. So there is 2-4 planes in peace time on duty in the air patrolling, that was there official excuse not to shoot the other planes down. Thats :bs: though, Andrew's AFB is 10 miles away from Washington DC, they could have scrambled jets but for a unknown reason it was not done. That is the only thing that needs to be touched by officials. Some tin foil hat wearer's say you can see small explosions when the towers collapse that look like planted explosives. This is just air pressure pushing out the windows as the building collapses, like a giant accordion.

There was no conspiracy on this country's part just lack of action like Sinatra said, and this is coming from a person who believes our government is covering up the existence of ET:happy:. But of course 50%-80% agree with me in polls but are not willing to talk about it:wgaf:

[Sinatra877]

The reason that our Combat Air Patrols for CONUS was so little was due to the last POTUS budget cuts. It's easy to stabilize the economy if you close down three Army Posts CONUS, four Army German Posts, one Marine base, two Coast Guard bases, two airbases and limit their patrol to only 4 aircraft at a time for the entire continental U.S.

Slick Willie fucked us all. But no one wanted to challenge him because he was so popular. Now we're in a full out war due to his lack of umph. He had a lot of opportunities to get Al Queda in the past. All he liked to do was remain popular and conduct polls.

Bush may not be great, he's a regular Joe. But at least he had the nuts to fight the right fight not just the popular fight. I will respect him for that. I don't think any of us could have done better. You can't fight one entity of Al Queda without fighting the ones supporting terrorist cells and training camps.

I remember when Clinton gave the coordinates and the permission too CNN when SEAL Team 2 landed on shore. Do you realize how much time and money it takes to put together a SEAL Team? Millions upon millions of dollars. All of SEAL Team 2 were later dispersed and had to be recreated again due to the release of faces in the CNN taping. Les Aspin wouldn't allow the release the use of Armor in Somalia because Clinton said too him it looked too inflammatory. Les Aspin died of a apparent heart attack very conveniently didn't he? Aspin and Clinton got 13 of my friends killed for nothing and one of my beloved teachers. He was a God in the SF community and my friend. Clinton felt the MOH was a good payoff for the Delta men killed. I won't even write out the MOH because too military men, it is the last medal that retained it's honor, that is so precious, it implies the best of us. If you aren't decorated with it and you have one means you can receive 15 years in prison. If you win it, you & your Son receives an automatic appointment to one of the service academies. If you were a Private and won it, it holds so much honor that a 4-star will still have to salute you. I wouldn't dishonor the name of the MOH with Clinton in this thread. One of the Wives of the recipients spat in his face! No one heard of that I bet!

I was working as an observer from Bragg. I took a 9 man team to look over the objectives set by Clinton then. Six months prior too US involvement, I went over S-2 reports and recommended too my NCOIC's that this would be a clusterfuck. I'm sure they reported the same to their Officers. The Officers made the plea not to go. We knew there was over 400 militant factions working there and maybe 6-7 of them being major players. The ones who have the power have the food. The ones with the food had the guns. What was the result of all this? Absolutely Dick! All the intel was good and reliable. Clinton wanted to look good for the press due to his lack of military service and deploy US troops there. He had no fucking idea.

[CBnL]

If our country had the nuts to fight the right fight we would be invading Saudi Arabia, that was the country of origin for a majority of the hijackers but NO, the Bush’s are making too much money off of King Fahd.
When thing smell of shit, don’t ask “how could they be so crazy…” but ask “who is going to make a fuck load of money here…”.
What about the 12 BILLION dollars that got lost while under military control over in Iraq? You know, the 12 billion in mainly hundred dollar bills that was picked up at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York and flown over on a C130 transport.
Which Washington fucker has that stashed in his basement?
Washington also allowed British Petroleum to buy out the largest single owner of American natural gas… Amoco, they owned 32% of North America’s natural gas supply, it is now owned by the fucking British… that fag ass Lord Brown who had his little boy lover that spilled his guts to the tabloids when Brown cut off his $$$’s. Back when BP wanted to buy up US oil interests, the committees said it would lower gasoline prices by reducing overhead encountered by having multiple producers and suppliers… now that gasoline has gone up 50+% in cost since then, they now say that the reduction in competition is the cause. SUCK MY BALLS ! the fuckers always new the end results, they just fucking lie to see just how much shit they can shove down America’s throat and America is screaming for MORE!
FUCK will people ever open their eyes, see how bad they are being raped and put a stop to it???

[Sinatra877]

Like I said in another posted thread. A little genocide is good for the soul. It keeps folks humble. I have no problems crucifying every extremist in the Middle East. We are in Crusader mode now. All the terrorists of 9/11 were Saudi's the thing that segregates them is that the Official Governments do not support Terrorist cells or training. Ask me if I buy it though...Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Jordan, Dubai and Pakistan are our Muslim allies at the time being...again, at the time being.

Regarding the 12 billion dollars lost, I don't think they are neccessarily lost. I'm sure we've paid off for intelligence, schmeeked money too the CIA safehouse interrogation centers worldwide, bribed Afghani Warlords or Iraqi Imans into peace deals, and buying second hand weapons for the Kurds...I'm sure it's being used in a good fashion. It's just classified. If you want to know, you'll have to petition for a seat in the oversight comittee and you'll have to get a clearance to listen in on it.

It's kinda like pay raises for Police Officers, Firemen and Teachers. All the folks out there want something better but are unwilling to spend a dime to get it.

Let's take a good analytical look at the big picture:

We've spent nearly 300 billion in over almost eight years to conquer and "liberate" a foriegn power. For the most part, we've already met those objectives. We just need to teach them how to do it for themselves.

In Comparison;

We've already spent nearly 200 billion dollars in Louisiana especially in New Orleans/Orleans Parrish in two years and not one County/Parrish is running full speed yet...and Iraq is a war torn country. At least NOLA has a infrastructure to work with. What gives there?

I think we still get more bang for the buck overseas. If we as a country don't finish the fight in the Middle East correctly, our kids and grandkids will have to do it one day and I wouldn't want that.

[CBnL]

Here are the current numbers for the war:
Once the war spending bill is passed, military and diplomatic costs will have reached $101.8 billion this fiscal year, up from $87.3 billion in 2005, $77.3 billion in 2004 and $51 billion in 2003, the year of the invasion, congressional analysts said. Even if a gradual troop withdrawal begins this year, war costs in Iraq and Afghanistan are likely to rise by an additional $371 billion during the phaseout, the report said, citing a Congressional Budget Office study. When factoring in costs of the war in Afghanistan, the $811 billion total for both wars would have far exceeded the inflation-adjusted $549 billion cost of the Vietnam War.

The 12 Billion was to ~provide cash~ to the economy, basically put it in banks so there would be pieces of paper worth more than the dinar (last I heard it cost about 75,000 dinar to see a movie in Iraq)... that was above and beyond the black project money poured into Iraq. All the payoff money is out of the various budgets of CIA, NSA, etc...

[RiverFisher]

Sinatra-
Since I am coming into this late, I will address your original post.
First-THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY!
Second-Not every American has lost the American Spirit. I support the men and women serving this country in uniform each day, in person, and in prayer. In fairness to the people on the planes on 9-11, look at the context in which they were probably analyzing the situation. Up until that time, most planes that were hijacked, were flown to somewhere other than their original destination, landed and ended up a long drawn out hostage situation in which most of the hostages eventually made it out alive. In that scenario, the smartest thing to do for each individual would be to keep your head down and wait. No one thought that the bastards would fly the planes into buildings. The only reason that the folks took action on flight-93 was that through cell phone communications they found out what was happening and took action to prevent it. So calling them cowards because they couldn't get complete control of the plane is WAY off base.
The long and short of it is this, terrorists will NEVER be able to repeat what they carried out on 9-11 because everyone on the planes now has a new frame of reference from which to operate. I don't care if they sneak a nuke aboard, I am charging the bastards and will either be killed in the process, or emerge victorious, either way, there will NEVER be American sheep on planes again.
They will have to do something totally different.
Your point is not missed however. This country has become too fat, too lazy, and most importantly too proud. Proud as in exhibiting the sin of pride, not proud as in having honor. The politicians and media have obtained too much power, and it is killing us as a nation. Look at what is broadcast on our television airwaves. Based upon the media, we appear to be more concerned with how fat Brittney Spears was the other night than whether or not our military has the resources it needs. Desperate housewives, MTV Cribs, The girls next door, the list goes on and on. Now, simply broadcast American television into the Middle East, and tell me how they are supposed to believe anything other than America is the Great Satan. Hell, if I were born over there and had my head filled with hatred by some power loving, manipulative mullah, and I didn't know where I was going to get my next meal, it wouldn't be hard for me to believe that the root cause is America. I am not for censoring what is on TV, or shutting anyones trap, abandoning the first amendment, or anything along those lines, but people must realize that there are consequences to our actions. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the US deserved to get attacked, in fact nothing near that. They hit us, and we need to, and are hitting them back. If you don't believe that, then you do not understand the fight that we are in. The spineless bastards in Washington are losing the will, not most of the American people. Polls are BS! I am ashamed of people like Kucinich. In my book, what he did in Syria is tantamount to Treason and he should be shot upon his return to US soil. Granted, I live in a VERY Red state, but most of the people that I am around, support the war because they understand that these people want to kill all of us, and destroy freedom. The only ones that disagree are either growing weary, or are the type of person who believes that there is a diplomatic solution to every problem. The A-holes who state that Afghanistan and Iraq have only made Alqueda stronger simply do not understand the enemy. They have not seen how many "insurgents" are NOT IRAQI! This American would much rather have idiot, misled, misguided, hate mongers, who do not understand their own religion decide to go to Iraq to try to kill an American soldier than to allow them soaking time to plan bombings of trains, buses, schools, etc. in our country. For them the Jihad is more easily had by going to Iraq. American soldiers are more than happy to arrange a meeting between the Jihadists and their Maker, and are better equipped to do so than my son is sitting in his elementary school. Each American soldier that gives their life, or livelihood fighting these bastards over there, deserves the honor and credit that is due a person who is defending our children from those that would take away their freedom or kill them.
I usually feel better after a long rant like that, but somehow I just don't. Sinatra, I started out disagreeing with you on a lot of points, but now, maybe you are right. Maybe this country has lost its will.......its will to survive.

[Sinatra877]

I usually feel better after a long rant like that, but somehow I just don't. Sinatra, I started out disagreeing with you on a lot of points, but now, maybe you are right. Maybe this country has lost its will.......its will to survive.

I'm not claiming devine wisdom in this arena. I am merely a former soldier/cop who sells himself off at the highest bid against terrorists. I hold no grandeur nor nobility in what I currently do. In all aspects, I am and the folks that do my type of work are mercenaries, soldiers of fortune.

I don't hold myself higher than a American Soldier making poor wages, sacrificing themselves and their families sanity by doing their duty. That's why they call it the service. I just serve myself. If they didn't pay me the big bucks, I wouldn't go. The ones whom deserves the praise are the ones serving. Everyone from the Guy riding in a Hummvee in Anbar Province exposing himself too IED's to that young Private in Korea near the DMZ sleeping in a fighting position, watching for suspicious movements up north, and/or the everyday Teacher, Fireman & Policemen out there. Those are just examples of our everyday heroes. Those deserve our praise, for their service merits honor and nobility. I am nothing.

In retrospect of my original thread, I was angry when I wrote it. It was inflammatory and searing. It was not my intent. I'm just angry that we're in the situation that we're in. We all know that Life is not fair, nor is it just and it can be cut short in a moment's notice. The victims of 9/11 are not the cause, they were the aftermath. The terrorist hijackers were the cause of it all. I am angry that someone could've done something but didn't...and now we're in a quagmire of a war overseas.

In contrary to popular belief, I am not a warmonger, nor a hawk. I would have loved to stay with my wife and my divorce was caused by my absence in our relationship. We are divorced now but I have learned from the experience. Maybe God had designed a new destiny for me with this 23 year old. I don't know. I would love to settle down somewhere, stay with my family and have kids. I must admit though, that the call of the bugle and drum are near too my heart. I will go back again and again until I cannot physically endure it anymore. Maybe then I'll settle down but not yet. Maybe I'll just cash in one of my short term CD's and then write a book. I'm at a crossroads now but please know that I don't blame the victims on 9/11. I am more frustrated at the results of that day and that it appears that no one was willing...but you pointed out that some may just been told that they were going somewhere until the last minute and then tragically died in a horrible explosion.

[RiverFisher]

Those are just examples of our everyday heroes. Those deserve our praise, for their service merits honor and nobility. I am nothing.

That is your opinion sir, but unless I am mistaken, you did faithfully serve this great country, and it is because of that, I must THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.


You were angry when you posted, and so was I when I replied. I am no lover of war, but I really get angry when the country decides to do something (Yes-the United States Congress Voted To Go To War) like invade a country such as Iraq, and then the politicians don't get the hell out of the way and let the armed forces do what they do best. These Assmonkeys in Washington didn't learn anything from Vietnam. I am not defending President Bush here, I think that Rumsfeld pooched this thing from the beginning. But now he is gone and the politicians won't even give an honorable soldier like General Patraeus, the man who wrote the book on counter-insurgency a chance to report back without being ridiculed and made a mockery.
I don't have a problem if someone doesn't like the war in Iraq, I can totally understand that, but we broke it, we need to find a way to fix it. The current rhetoric is not constructive and dishonors those who are serving our country.
RF Out.

[Sinatra877]

If our country had the nuts to fight the right fight we would be invading Saudi Arabia, that was the country of origin for a majority of the hijackers but NO, the Bush’s are making too much money off of King Fahd. What about the 12 BILLION dollars that got lost while under military control over in Iraq? You know, the 12 billion in mainly hundred dollar bills that was picked up at the Federal Reserve Bank in New York and flown over on a C130 transport.

First, where are you getting your information? Even if they lost the monies it would be classified and no one but the Armed Services Oversight Commitee would have access to those numbers.

Here are the current numbers for the war:
Once the war spending bill is passed, military and diplomatic costs will have reached $101.8 billion this fiscal year, up from $87.3 billion in 2005, $77.3 billion in 2004 and $51 billion in 2003, the year of the invasion, congressional analysts said. Even if a gradual troop withdrawal begins this year, war costs in Iraq and Afghanistan are likely to rise by an additional $371 billion during the phaseout, the report said, citing a Congressional Budget Office study. When factoring in costs of the war in Afghanistan, the $811 billion total for both wars would have far exceeded the inflation-adjusted $549 billion cost of the Vietnam War. The 12 Billion was to ~provide cash~ to the economy, basically put it in banks so there would be pieces of paper worth more than the dinar (last I heard it cost about 75,000 dinar to see a movie in Iraq)... that was above and beyond the black project money poured into Iraq. All the payoff money is out of the various budgets of CIA, NSA, etc...

Again...where is the information coming from? What's the source? Not everything shows up for a regular Joe to find. Bottom line. We can't afford to just drop the ball there. It'll get worse and you know it.

That is your opinion sir, but unless I am mistaken, you did faithfully serve this great country, and it is because of that, I must THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.


OK...I did serve a good quarter of my entire life. I wanted to soldier ever since I was 13 years old. I made my mark already and just regret that I'm not as young and strong anymore. I would love to be in Iraq as a military member. Had I stuck with the Army after Somalia, I would be a owner of a six timer CIB. I am credited with three though...Panama, First Gulf War and Somalia. That was enough for me.

Just for shits and giggles. I told my "maintenance gal" that I was a proud member of the Berlin Brigade once and worked Checkpoint Charlie and a three month stint in Spandau Prison guarding the last Reichsfurher. She looked at me in a weird way and asked what those were...Oy! I almost cried. Hell, Checkpoint Charlie is in the Smithsonian Museum now and Spadau was torn to the ground.

Man, am I getting old. "Ughhh....my Prostate Hurts!"

[RiverFisher]

Man, am I getting old. "Ughhh....my Prostate Hurts!"

You should get the maintenance gal to massage the prostate for ya.:moon: